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Why tractors are so slow playing with "moreRealistic" ?

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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« on: December 11, 2013, 10:04:09 am »

Since many players ask why "morerealistic" tractors are so slow, especially when "carting" on road, here is a little topic to put all the data to understand that :
Please reply to this topic if you think something is wrong regarding speed, in that case, please provide :
- which tractor
- which trailer
- which "fillType" and how many liters in the trailer
- which map and which road

Best thing to do is to give another try on Hagensted with default "mr" equipment to see if the problem does not come from your mods and also, so that we could reproduce the problem by ourselves to check that for you.


So, the main reason why people think the tractors are too slow is the road slope gradient on most map.
Due to the base game physic, most road are very steep so that the tractor slow down a little.
But with "morerealistic" tractors, you don't have to get a 30% slope to slow down the vehicle : force and gravity are applied realistically, and so, the speed will be right according to the tractor power and the gravity force to counteract depending to the slope and the total mass to move.

On Hagensted, for example, most hilly roads are between 20 and 30% gradient.
This is really steep and most of you will never see such steep road in their entire life.
A very steep highway is under 10%
And other steep roads are no more than 15-20% most of the time.

Another point is that in the game, we can't feel the gravity like in reality. And so, especially when playing in 3rd person view, we can't imagine how steep a slope is.


Here are some "visual" examples so that you can understand better what is a "steep" road :


1. look at 1:35, the truck is at more than 80% engine power, and the speed is less than 10kph.
Like in the game, we don't realize how steep the slope is here.
If you look this video entirely, You would also hear that the car has to go uphill in first gear and can't gear up until it reaches the top.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWb3GnrpFk


2. On this video, trucker has to go "pedal to the metal", because he is not driving on a "concrete/asphalt" road : if the truck stops, it is stuck and need to be towed.
Of course, we are not talking of a weak 300Hp farming tractor with a CVT "low efficiency" gearbox here Wink
Like you can see, the speed is under 20kph at the worst part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Fkg-EGOz0


3. same as previous one. Look at 01:10 or at 11:00 for example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB8vhm2stu0

4. another one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi5HKBJ7QXc

5. On this "famous" video, we don't mind who is the first (especially when considering they climb the road at the same speed, only the start give some meters to the John Deere)
But this is rather interesting to see at which speed they climb, when noting there is "only" 20T in each trailer (something like 41T total moving mass)
The slope seems to be less than 10% when trying to measure it with "paint.net" for example. (difficult here to get something precise since there is no real "side screenshot")
And the speed around 20kph.
If the test was conducted on a "Hagenstedt" road, the tractors would go slower by a factor of 2-3 (we could follow them without a car)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xu7aA178D8


6. On this video, we can see a "real" truck pulling at less than 40kph on a highway going uphill. The description says the load is 78,000Lbs, that is to say about 35 metric tons.
as in the game, the slope seems pretty "flat". (surely something under 10% since this is a highway)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKtUehbh3pM

7. This one is better situated and we know the slope is no more than 8% at the worst part.
If you look at 18:00, you can see the truck goes under 40kph too. (That would mean less than 12kph on Hagensted, provided the truck does not lose traction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGP8C-ghAn0

8. The mighty 1455 going uphill (as usual, this is very hard to estimate the slope, and it seems this is only a very light slope from our chair. But at the worst part, we could follow the tractor "walking")
1455 XL:Dt 402 frôle la zone rouge

9. last but not least. This is not a video, but a report with precise data.
And for those that don't want to read all the report, just look at the "figure 9", page 18 : you could see that the tractor goes under 15kph on some slope.
This is also interesting to say we are talking of 240+ Hp tractor with only 18 metric Ton on the back (trailer + load), which is pretty "light" for such tractors. (in my country, a 240Hp tractor commonly pull a 24T trailer fully loaded = at least 36T, but of course, we are not driving at 50-60kph)
http://www.deere.fr/fr_FR/docs/news_and_media/Abschlussbericht_Landwirtschaftskammer_SH_ENG.pdf


So, with all this example and data, I hope you understand better why a 300Hp farming tractor can't go uphill at 30kph towing 40T on a 20% gradient road.

EDIT : some in-game test =
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGsDNWqHnE4
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 06:00:28 pm by dural » Logged
rrb78
500+
Joined November 2012


« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 10:31:38 am »

Great post Dural, it sure explains the reality in a good fashion.. Sure, I've sometimes thought my tractor was underpowered, when I can't go more than 10kph up a "small" slope, but then I stopped, went out of the tractor, and took a look from outside.. That "small" slope was a little steeper then I first thought.. So I just got back in and crawled up to the top..
I've found MR to be more or less spot on. Nothing is perfect of course, but it's a lot better than original game. People just have to take in the fact that this is more realistic, and forget about the original game physics, which aren't realistic at all..
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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 10:54:02 am »

Sure, I've sometimes thought my tractor was underpowered, when I can't go more than 10kph up a "small" slope
When I started "scripting" the "morerealistic" on Hagenstedt, I spent many hours trying to understand where was my error when seing the slow speeds going uphill.
Then, I understood what was the real problem when I measured the slope on most of the roads...

Quote
and forget about the original game physics, which aren't realistic at all..
This is another great point that explain why we don't notice the roads are so steep : we are accustomed to the arcade physic of the game (and also, many of us are accustomed to race car game physics, where we drive overpowered cars that are very light)
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yumi
Regular
Joined May 2012


« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 12:42:42 pm »

Really interesting post Dural.
The video are great and the study on point 9. is also very instructive.
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moreRealistic fan !
FS17 mr on Lossberg map.
Give a try to ContractorMod!
dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 07:15:18 pm »

new video : here we can see how fast a tractor can lose speed when going uphill, especially when full (230Hp tractor here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZc7hxCQfIo
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modelleicher
Regular
Joined July 2010


« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 12:41:22 pm »

Hi, here is a video i found today.. It's not the best quality and somewhat weird camera position, but you get a good feeling what slopes do to tractors with load attached on them, even if they have 180hp..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGIPlffluQg
The whole trailer (or maybe with tractor, not sure) is about 28.5 tons according to video description

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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 01:37:48 pm »

Hi, here is a video i found today.. It's not the best quality and somewhat weird camera position, but you get a good feeling what slopes do to tractors with load attached on them, even if they have 180hp..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGIPlffluQg
The whole trailer (or maybe with tractor, not sure) is about 28.5 tons according to video description
I think only the full trailer weight is 28T. And so, we are talking of a total moving mass of about 36-37T
We are far from the "mountainous roads" of Hagensted, and in some hills, we could walk beside the mb-trac on this video.
We can also notice that the operator had to brake often during the downhill part of the video even if he is not driving very "fast".

PS : 36T = deutz 6190TTV + agroliner MUK 303 fully filled with wheat
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klirre
Regular
Joined October 2013


« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 02:55:41 pm »

While on the subject of MB tracs, here's a clip from Sweden:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUzpnCKNR0o
This in particular is in southern Sweden, where we who live here don't even know what a real hill is Cheesy
I find it hard to estimate the slope, but I know for a fact that the tractor has around 160hp (original, the black smoke implies a little more than that Wink) and the total weight is somewhere around 60 metric tons (stated in the comments of this video, though in Swedish)
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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 03:28:56 pm »

While on the subject of MB tracs, here's a clip from Sweden:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUzpnCKNR0o
This in particular is in southern Sweden, where we who live here don't even know what a real hill is Cheesy
I find it hard to estimate the slope, but I know for a fact that the tractor has around 160hp (original, the black smoke implies a little more than that Wink) and the total weight is somewhere around 60 metric tons (stated in the comments of this video, though in Swedish)
In "your" video, this is not the 60T combo. But We can estimate the weight to something around 55T.
Max slope by eye = something like 3-4% at the "steepest" point. (for reference, on Hagensted, we are talking of more than 20%)

Here is the video with the 60T duals trailer (60T = total moving mass, loaded trailers + tractor)
MB-Trac in Sweden
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klirre
Regular
Joined October 2013


« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 04:36:26 pm »

In "your" video, this is not the 60T combo. But We can estimate the weight to something around 55T.
Max slope by eye = something like 3-4% at the "steepest" point. (for reference, on Hagensted, we are talking of more than 20%)

Here is the video with the 60T duals trailer (60T = total moving mass, loaded trailers + tractor)
MB-Trac in Sweden

As I said, where I live there's nothing even remotely close to a "hill", the landscape is just "less flat" in some areas Cheesy. It might be true what you say about the trailers in "my" video, but in my other link the exact same ones are present with the uploader claiming 60T. Sure, it might be "just" 55T, but my point in that the slopes are very flat and the tractor still has to struggle is pretty good I think.
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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 06:02:01 pm »

Here is a little in-game test :
We can clearly see in it that the slope grade impact on the speed is not proportionnal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGsDNWqHnE4

And so, trying to pull 38T on a 25% grade road is just "insane".
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wadeeb
Regular
Joined February 2014


« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2014, 04:23:19 pm »

Great explanation of why this is more realistic. As a truck driver who has also run a few pieces of heavy equipment and has a mechanical background this makes perfect sense. Its really a matter of purpose built machinery.

Farm tractors are made to overcome massive friction from high traction tires and pull loads that have a large amount of drag so naturally they excel at that. Their transmissions and entire drivetrain is made for just that.

Semi trailer trucks are made to heavy loads on the highway so they have many gears to keep the engine in the the peak torque range as they speed up. At the same time the rolling resistance is pretty low compared to pulling a cultivator in a field so they are able to obtain much higher speeds.

Purpose built machinery is made to be really good at the task it was made for. When you try and take a tractor on the highway its gonna suck and you won't be able to go 100km/hr. Its just not geared for it.

Its like how a lot of people put big mud tires on their truck then complain their fuel economy has dropped. Well yes it will when you add so much more rolling resistance and friction. Something has to power that.

Great mod. keep it up
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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 04:06:14 pm »

another good example :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRZEhMYt9ZU
Look at the comments :
Quote
ok when does the hill start? ....... there? what? are you serious?
Quote
where is the hill?
Quote
we have steeper drive ways in the Great USA
Quote
Waaaaay... Toooooo... BOORIING..!!!
Quote
this.... this is < CENSORED > its barely a hill
etc etc.
This is exately the same with Farming Simulator and "MR" : people don't imagine the road slope gradient. They are too "narrow minded" and don't try to understand if what they "feel" by watching the video is correct or not. They just think this is "stupid".
Of course, if they were IRL at the same place, their comments would not be the same Wink

Estimated avg slope on this video = 7-8°
=> between 12 and 14% gradient (half the avg slope gradient on most FS maps Wink)
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dural
Area Moderator
Joined May 2010


« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 05:03:38 pm »

next one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3LkAnG89_o
Watch at 4:15 => the road doesn't seem very steep (look flat in fact), and the tractor's speed drop at 27kph (27M3 => I estimate the total weight to something like 45T)

This one is good too to show "people" that a tractor doesn't always run at more than 40kph, especially when loaded and going uphill Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VLX7kxVCiM

and another time, you can look at the comment to have a "good" time
Example  :
Quote
Whats te speed of the tractor in the video? Thats not 50km/h, i think 35...
But the tractor only goes at 12kph here...
So, reality and video (or videogame) are really not the same. For some people it seems pretty hard to estimate "figures".
Does that mean that we should make "arcadish" games so that people think this is "normal" when playing ? I don't think so when we look at the game development over years : "cars" games are more and more "realistic" regarding physics and speed.
so, why a "farming simulator" should be more "arcadish" than an "arcade" car game ? not enough "mature" gamers for this kind of game ?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:12:12 pm by dural » Logged
peropetric
Newbie
Joined April 2013


« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2014, 04:04:20 pm »

Dural but he has company in the cabin may be the reason that he is in no hurry
joke of course
I play all the time with your mods and I think it's the right choice
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